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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:32 pm 
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I actually liked the change of the blind swordsman's battle sequence into step-printing. It added a certain poetic effect to it that fit more with the feel of the film.

I kind of agree with you on the score. I love the old score to death. I do like the new score, but it just feels like a typical westernized, post-Crouching Tiger wuxia pian score.

Also, on the pictures above from the HK premier, is it just me or has Charlie Yeung become prettier over time?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:37 am 
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aids wrote:
Although I really enjoyed the improved picture, I thought some of the added special effects were quite naff and unnecessary.

The CGI sun really annoyed the hell out of me. :x

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:11 pm 
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I actually thought all the CGI and digitally enhanced images were quite nice. I'm in the Bordwell camp on this one: I LOVED this film before Redux, but I think this new version is an absolute masterpiece.

The only thing I do sort of miss is the old score, which was just so bizarre that you couldn't help but love it. But the new score is quite beautiful, too, so it's not such a crippling loss.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:42 pm 
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Well the CG that really annoyed me was when the blind swordsmen is killed, and the scene quickly switches to his wife in the river, the birds flying off. The old version had this shot with birds flying off too, but the CG of this in the new version was very obvious I thought.

I really missed the music when Brigitte lies with Leslie while he's sleeping, and then the characters keep switching between Maggie, Tony and Leslie. In the new version there's only silence, and it doesn't leave the same impression.

The score seemed to be a mish-mash of the old and new music.
If only we could have the new image with the old score! Sigh.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:10 pm 
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Just watched this version yesterday. I'm in the 'old score' camp too, although I suppose for anyone who never saw the original the new score would be ravishing too. It's just I kept waiting for certain tunes to start up... most noticeably in the four-way dream scene.

Also, I agree the CGI was totally naff. Did anyone notice the ridiculous lens flare effects over the first shots?

A lot of the changes seem to be to about removing immediately noticeable (i.e. embarassing) aspects. E.g. the dead cat, a few cringetastic screams from Brigitte, anything vaguely too wuxia (e.g. Tony no longer jumps 15 feet in the air, the montage of Leslie shooting fire from his hands is gone, etc). All very well, but it removes a few logical progressions. E.g. Leslie talks about his friend fighting the horse thieves - but as that scene is gone we don't know he is talking about Tony LKF. Also, losing the starting monologue completely blitzes the notion of envy. So when Leslie and Tony LKF start talking about envy near the end, the context and impact won't be clear. (A lot of this could also be said for the 'French cut' which existed back in 1994 anyway.)

I still think Redux is great though, and the picture quality is worth the exercise alone.

Also, a few reviews mention reordering of scenes to simplify the story. I've yet to do a side by side comparison, but I might have missed this - were any scenes reordered?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:38 am 
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I also like the original score a bit more, It's been years since I saw the old version (I broke my disc by accident =/), but I think some new tracks loops too much in the film, they're not bad but I definitely liked the old tracks better, and they took out the music for some scenes as well.

My vcd version (lol vcd) had voice over for Brigitte Lin in cantonese, I'm glad to see it gone in this, I didn't mind WKW cutting out some aspects of the film but I kind of liked the fights in the original, I thought they were badass when I first see this film in my early teens >_>

I'm glad they did redux, ashes of time has been my favorite film, and I have always been watching the crappy vcd version, I just can't stop watching this film back then and even now, it's so beautiful, I thought it was such an underrated WKW film.


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 Post subject: Re: Ashes of Time Redux
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:48 pm 
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A list of the differences between Ashes of Time Redux (2008) and the original Asian release of Ashes of Time (1994).


(The source material comes from the Artificial Eye R2 (PAL) DVD for the more recent film, and the Mei Ah (NTSC) VCD for the original. All time references (h:mm:ss) come from the Artificial Eye DVD, and descriptions generally point out what is different – inserted, removed or altered – in the newer film.)

– Different starting sequence and titles. The newer film features a black and yellow paint/liquid motif.
– (0:00:57) Insertion of a shot of a lunar eclipse. First shots of Leslie and Tony Leung Kar-Fei feature tint and lens flare effects. The lunar eclipse is intercut into their duel (often replacing the original ocean shots). Tony LKF's close-ups are in a different order (his hair is blowing further in one shot). The music is completely different – the new main theme is similar to the second to last theme in the original ('The Truth' according to the original OST)(further musical differences hereafter will only be mentioned when major, as the score has been rebuilt entirely). The first shot of the exploding mountain is removed.
– (0:01:30) The water shot is step-printed in the newer film. The Buddhist quote is in black text rather than white.
– (0:01:43) The entire wuxia combat sequence featuring Leslie battling Lau Shun (a cameo appearance by this wuxia stalwart), shooting flames from his palm, etc, is excised. As is the following sequence of Tony LKF fighting the horse thieves (who feature again later in the film). Also, all the related voiceover (Leslie's first mention of the theme of envy, as reflected in the Chinese title of the film and the nicknames of the characters) is naturally gone too.
– (0:01:44) The shot of the dark scrolling landscape now scrolls in the opposite direction – i.e. Left to right in the new film, with step printing.
– (0:03:15) Insertion of a yellow on black intertitle ('Jingzhe – Spring Awakens').
– (0:03:35) Removal of a high shot of the outside of the inn at night as Tony LKF arrives. Replaced with a pan of a cliff.
– (0:05:13) Tony LKF's lines (starting 'I don't quite recall') are read slightly differently, suggesting a different dub for him.
– (0:11:08) Insertion of a shot of the outside of an inn at night (when Brigitte Lin first gets angry). The cut in to a close-up of Brigitte's face is delayed by about one second, removing the initial zoom in.
– (0:11:41) Insertion of a shot of an inn at night reflected in water. Replaces the shot of a stricken cat clinging on to a pillar. A second shot of the cat is also cut a few seconds later.
– (0:12:40) Audio of Brigitte laughing removed.
– (0:12:57) No noticeable background music in this scene (when Brigitte as the male Murong first approaches Leslie for a killer) until 0:13:19.
– (0:13:46) Insertion of a shot of an inn at night reflected in water. Possibly the same shot as above.
– (0:16:10) No music in this scene (when Brigitte as the female Murong first approaches Leslie for a killer).
– (0:18:18) Insertion of new (very subtle and quiet) music on this originally music-less scene (Brigitte and Leslie's dialogue by the spinning bird cage).
– (0:20:20) Inclusion of a minuscule jump cut by cutting a few (fewer than five) frames in the last few seconds of the spinning bird cage scene.
– (0:23:22) Leslie's voice mixed with noticeable echo ('you don't remember me?').
– (0:26:42) This scene (the four-way dream scene), is played out without music (except for a very subtle musical motif near the end) in the new film. The effect is markedly different from the original. One of the shots of the shadows against the wall is cut. The voiceover is about 5 seconds late. One of the last shots in the montage (a hand going between two gaps of cloth) is placed one shot early in the new film.
– (0:29:36) The sound of Brigitte moaning against a tree has been removed.
– (0:30:02) A few shots removed from the Defeat-Seeking Loner Brigitte epilogue (between her drawing her sword and the shot of a tree line, then a couple of shots of a leap). Inclusion of a lens flare effect at one point. Removal of two screams from Brigitte as both Murongs.
– (0:30:57) Insertion of a yellow on black intertitle ('Xiazhi – Summer rises')
– (0:33:16) A voiceover ('everyone holds on to something special', rendered in the new version as 'everyone needs something to live for') is moved from here to a later scene.
– (0:33:57) Insertion of a shot of peach blossoms as Leslie talks about his dream.
– (0:36:00) The local swordsman Tony Leung Chiu-Wai ('Tony LCW' – hereafter, just 'Tony') duels with has a completely different voice from the original – much lower.
– (00:39:02) Insertion of a blurred close-up shot of a flame (just before Tony lights a lamp – so emphasising his failing vision).
– (0:44:37) At the start of Tony's battle sequence, his three fire-breathing attacks from the original film have been cut down to one.
– (0:45:01) An entire sequence of Tony leaping through a gap in the roof, fighting on the roof and jumping back down has been removed.
– (0:45:20) The audio for this part of Tony's action sequence has mid and high frequencies removed, giving a feeling of sluggish senses. At 0:45:24 the scrolling shot of foes fades in from white with a bleached, overexposed effect. This effect occurs several times in the sequence, emphasising the difficulty Tony has in seeing. In the original, at this point the foes were underexposed and dark, emphasising the same but using the opposite effect.
– (0:45:33) Insertion of a shot of the sun being obscured by dark moving clouds. The following slow motion shot of Tony, sword outstretched is processed much darker in the new film.
– (0:46:14) Just after Tony squints and three successive foes attack him in three separate shots, in the new film two consecutive lens flare effects are applied to obscure the attackers.
– (0:46:51) As a horde of attackers swarms out of a hut, there is a brief shot of a sun inserted in the new film, followed by lens flare and sepia effects (lasting only about one second), and then the audio is once more mixed with bass frequencies only (the rest of the frequencies are mixed back in at about 0:47:07).
– (0:47:23) Insertion of a shot of twigs on a windswept sand surface. The following shots in the action sequence have a strong, yellow sepia effect (almost monochrome), and increased grain compared to the original.
– (0:47:38) As Tony is killed by the left-handed swordsman, a shot of a sun superimposed on a desert dune appears for about one frame. Then the shot of the swordsman drawing his sword as the camera zooms in features a lens flare effect in the new film and the shot is shorter than the original (to compensate for the additional shot). Unlike the original film there is no dramatic echo from the fatal blow.
– (0:47:47) The original shot of blood spraying from Tony's neck is CGI-enhanced now, with the blood behaving in a more 'liquid' fashion.
– (0:48:03) The shot of the gap in the tented roof starts off much darker then the original, then lights up more dramatically as the sun comes out.
– (0:48:12) Insertion of a yellow on black intertitle ('Bailu – Autumn turns')
– (0:48:14) Removal of the scene following Tony LCW's death of Tony LKF drinking at an inn. In the original film this was a short scene with Tony LKF mentioning in voiceover his regret that Tony LCW never forgave him. Missing this coda to Tony LCW's story makes it a little less clear how Tony LKF reciprocates Tony LCW's emotions, and how he valued their friendship.
– (0:48:20) The order of several shots in Jacky Cheung's first fight have been moved around. The shot of him washing his hair is now put in the middle of a series of shots of horses galloping. A shot of a horse rearing up on to its hind legs has been removed. A shot of a fighter backflipping through the air has been removed. A shot of a horse being kicked aside has been removed, although the final frames (post-kick) are reinserted a shot or two later.
– (0:54:47) Removal of a shot of a dead body with a sword obviously stuck behind it rather than in it. This is after Jacky Cheung has defeated the horse thieves.
– (0:55:01) The three shots of dead swordsmen are all altered with different tint effects. The first two shots flip to darkened after a second or two, while the last fades to black (in the original the last darkened and then lightened again).
– (0:56:37) Removal of a shot of Leslie walking to a window to observe Jacky and his wife. This happens immediately after Leslie meets Jacky's wife for the first time and tries to tell her that Jacky has gone. This shot is reinserted to near the end of Charlie's story, after she tends to a sick Jacky.
– (0:58:51) The voiceover mentioned above as missing at 0:33:16 ('everyone needs something to live for') is inserted here, as Leslie watches Charlie Yeung.
– (0:59:34) The order and choice of shots in the action sequence as Jacky avenges Charlie Yeung's brother has been altered significantly. Now the shot after the first foe spitting is Jacky leaping forwards. This is followed by a close-up of a blade being drawn. Neither shots are in the original. The original and new film feature the next shot of someone falling on a table. But then in the new film the shots afterwards are apparently shot from a different angle, with the insertion of someone dying sideways, eyes wide. The two films coincide once again when someone takes a chunk out of Jacky's hat, but then diverge again after a table is split asunder. The new film then skips to a shot of someone being slashed in the midriff, missing a few shots from the original, but including some new footage after that (probably just the missing sequence shot from a different angle), before both films once more coincide on a man falling dead. There is yet more divergence, the action coinciding on a man falling dead on a gap in the split table, then some more divergence (the new film features a few shots, including a table falling backwards, and a person falling from height, which featured later on in the fight in the original). Both films coincide when Jacky loses a finger. After some more divergence both films coincide as he messes up the last foe. The new editing achieves two things: 1) the new sequence is a little easier to follow, and 2) all the ancillary foes are dispatched before Jacky gets serious with the main foe (whereas in the original film he was still fighting others when he was getting busy with the main boss).
– (1:02:47) Insertion of a shot of rain failing on a straw-strewn floor. This is just before Charlie asks Leslie to help Jacky.
– (1:04:47) A change of dialogue as Charlie talks to an ill Jacky. In the new film he ends his conversation with, 'remember, don't do anything stupid.' In the original he says 'don't do anything stupid,' followed by 'remember, there's always someone waiting for you.' The new film has the line spoken while the shot is on Charlie's face to mask the re-spliced audio. Then the new film cuts to a shot of Leslie walking to a window (a shot moved from earlier in the film).
– (1:04:54) The scene of Jacky's wife tending to him as he recovers has been removed. The removal of this scene affects how we perceive Charlie's dilemma, as we now don't know how Jacky recovered, and whether Charlie did 'sell herself' to pay for a doctor (as Leslie suggested she should). The shot of Jacky's wife singing outdoors is moved to after Charlie's final shot, although the implication – from the original film – that Jacky's wife helped him recover is much less clear in the new film.
– (1:05:46) Replacement of a shot of a desert dune with a shot of a different desert dune, with a camel. This occurs when Jacky gets his wanderlust and decides to start moving again.
– (1:08:12) Jacky's epilogue fades to black, with the text on this black background (rather than just on the picture of him walking into the storm). In fact, the whole of his epilogue is much darker than the original.
– (1:08:54) When Leslie recalls his last night with Maggie, the first shot uses the whole frame, whereas the original was cropped and zoomed to approximately 40% of the frame (giving a 'second-hand' effect, with Maggie occasionally off the edge of the frame).
– (1:09:54) Leslie's last encounter with Maggie starts to diverge at this point, with the new film reaching a traditional shot/reverse shot face-to-face encounter. The original did not show a close-up of Maggie facing the camera, and instead included a short jump cut to her in her bridal gear moaning. When Leslie does accost her, some of the over-exposure effects from the original are less pronounced.
– (1:10:25) Insertion of a yellow on black intertitle ('Lichun – Winter fades')
– (1:12:37) The shot of the sea starting Maggie's extended scene now fades in from black.
– (1:12:49) Maggie's monologue diverges at this point. After (rough Cantonese translation rather than the inaccurate subs) 'he doesn't say a word,' she skips straight to 'he never asks for what he wants.' This leaves out: 'He never raises a smile. But if you don't talk to him, he just stares at you. I wonder what's on his mind?' Also, in her dialogue with Tony LKF, the guitar music from the original is absent.
– (1:14:44) Insertion of a shot of a mountain range set against dark, fast-moving clouds. Conversely, two shots have been removed: Tony LKF biting into his pear, and a shot of Maggie from behind, silhouetted against the window.
– (1:20:26) Insertion of a close-up shot of peach blossoms. This is just before Tony LKF's epilogue.
– (1:20:46) Insertion of a yellow on black intertitle ('Jingzhe – Spring returns')
– (1:26:11) As at 0:01:44, the scrolling landscape now scrolls left to right, with step printing (the original was right to left).
– (1:26:29) The text explaining Leslie's fate in Chinese now takes up four vertical lines instead of three. It is, however, the same text.
– (1:26:39) The final montage of action is much shortened now, and only features Leslie battling through a line of enemies (the last sequence in the original montage). This leaves out a sequence of Leslie battling Jacky (presumably the duel where they both die, as predicted in the text in Jacky's epilogue), Tony LKF in a clinch with an unknown lady, Brigitte flying in with an umbrella (looking mad) and Brigitte lying on hundreds of red chilli peppers (looking mad again). Leslie's sequence is amended slightly too – the original superimposed him against an upside down shot of flames. The new version superimposes him against fast shifting clouds instead, and features a heavy sepia effect. The final freeze frame fades to black in the new film, whereas the original version cut straight to the white background where the black credits appear.
– (1:26:56) The closing titles in the new film ditch the old black text on white background for animated black text on a stylised background of desert (which appears to consist of two CGI desert shots moving in different directions horizontally).


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 Post subject: Re: Ashes of Time Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:41 am 
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^ Nice work. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Ashes of Time Redux
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:15 pm 
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hehe...

I literally had not logged in for about a year. It's funny how glacially slow some of these threads can be.

I was planning on listing the differences between Aot and AoTR for a page on my site... but just couldn't muster the energy to finish the page hence my leaving it here.

Glad to see you're still keeping the WKW flag flying.


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